The Labour Party is a centre-left political party in the United Kingdom. Founded at the start of the 20th century, it has been seen since 1920 as the principal party of the Left in England, Scotland and Wales, but not Northern Ireland, where it has only recently begun to organise again. Labour first surpassed the Liberal Party in general elections during the early 1920s. Since then, the party has had several spells in government, at first in minority governments under Ramsay MacDonald in 1924 and 1929-1931, then as a junior partner in the wartime coalition from 1940-1945 and ultimately forming majority governments under Clement Attlee in 1945-1951 and under Harold Wilson in 1964-1970. Labour was in government again in 1974-1979, first under Wilson and then James Callaghan, though with a precarious and declining majority.
The Labour Party won a majority in the 1997 general election under the leadership of Tony Blair, its first general election victory since October 1974 and the first general election since 1970 in which it had exceeded 40% of the popular vote. The party’s large majority in the House of Commons was slightly reduced to 167 in the 2001 general election and more substantially reduced to 66 in 2005. Labour is the leading partner in the coalition Welsh government and the main opposition party in the Scottish Parliament. It has 13 members in the European Parliament and is also a member of the Socialist International. The party’s current leader is Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_%28UK%29
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Please use the comment form below to describe why you will or will not be voting Labour Party at the 2010 General Election.
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107 responses to Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Again, oh highly intelligent (not) “vntbnp” , it says they are CURRENTLY 11.5 Million in debt NOW! They only hope to get 8 million for their election campaign, from the unions and some of their toadies(who now look like jumping ship for the cons)! No surprises there then, the same people who were hoping to BUY a peerage will try to BUY it from the equally corrupt cons!!
And you say you are a manager in a large company, I hope your bosses are taking note of the time you spend posting here & your other sites and of the clangers you drop! You wouldnt last 5 minutes in a company I had any say in!!
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+9
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
A quote from your own quoted article:
“Mr Blunkett confirmed last night that the party had a campaign budget of only £8 million. The bulk of this money comes from trade unions and is being held back until the polling date is announced, probably in April.”
And how I manage my time is actually non of your concern in the first place, and I don’t have to justify myself to someone who can only come up with basic childish attempts at insults.
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-7
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“vntbnp” , are you that thick, a BUDGET does not mean they have the cash, in fact they dont have it being 11.5 million in debt now! They are desperately HOPING that some mugs will stump it up for them, but its not looking very likely, so they will probably try & fiddle it on the govts 500 odd million pr budget!
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+6
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Oh come on lets get real, you know damn well they have that cash otherwise they wouldn’t say it not even you are that naive.
And if we want to talk budgets, last year I remember the BNP making wild claims that they spent £600,000 on the EU elections that they raised from their loyal members and it turns out all they spent was £282,843 so the BNP lied to the faithful once again with the heavy spend claims.
Need evidence here it is: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/party-finance/party-finance-analysis/campaign-expenditure-2009
Sp maybe you should re-read all the emails from Griffin begging for more money (i’ve seen them) claiming they spent £600,000 on the Euro Elections and suprise suprise it turns out they didn’t oh dear.
Same as they raised £28k to buy the truth truck which it turns out that don’t actually own (even though they told the supporters they do) the accounts show they don’t that it is leased from non other than the guy that runs the BNP’s fundraising arm in Ireland.
oops looks like the all mighty BNP lied to you all again.
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-7
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
And lets also point out that according the the BNP’s own accounts they ended last year some £86,000 in debt and have according to the figures they have given the electoral commission only taken in £40,000 in donation for the first 3 quarters of last year means they are also still in debt and can’t afford the General Election either.
Even the Tories owe 7. something million yet have a budget of £25 million to lash out on the election, so don’t be so naive as to suggest that it can’t be done.
We all know how business works, many companies run at a cash loss but can still function due to assessts owned which they can secure loans against etc, and political parties take in donations use some to pay down the debt and hold the rest for campaigns, it’s fairly standard business as well as political party practice.
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-6
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Let your own words damn you:-
(VoteNo ToBNP
Comment on Reasons to Vote British National Party : BNP 2010 General Election (December 29th, 2009 at 16:57)
As a Conservative supporter not really my job to defend Labour politicians is it?)
Strange how you now are again trying to “DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE” as long as you think it smears the BNP, just proving AGAIN your uaf roots!!
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+7
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Actually it isn’t defending them it is showing that the claim you made is in fact incorrect, and I have just had a look at the latest Labour Party accounts which show that as of Dec 31st they actually had £13 million in the bank and in cash.
Yes the accounts also show £11 million of debts which they are paying back at a rate of what looks like 4-5 million a year so far.
So not defending the party just proving your statements as wrong.
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-5
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Just a nice little side note to what I have already said here, The Times are running an article on their website about this very subject:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6977098.ece
A few choice exerts for you:
“Mr Griffin has often claimed that the BNP spent more than £500,000 during the campaign. In fact, the party spent much less, £282,843 — only £54,000 more than it did during 2004.”
“Mr Griffin’s claims had raised eyebrows, —particularly because the party had declared less than £25,000 in donations since January 2008.
Simon Darby, the BNP deputy leader, yesterday blamed bureaucracy for the errors and said the party needed to exaggerate because “if we had said we wanted to spend 10p, it wouldn’t do us any good. … there’s a bit of hyperbole with politics”. He refused to comment further on the discrepancy, saying that it was not a “worthy question”.”
Just goes to show that I am not the only one who picked this up (well far from the only one), but I did get the jump on The Times as they only published earlier ready for the 6th lol
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-5
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
i wasn’t lucky enough to go to a good school i worked hard for it, i went to the breakfast, lunch time and after school clubs when i wasn’t understanding things and time was ‘WASTED?!’ on those who cant speak good English (and those with behavior problems) the help is there in most schools (when is any thing 100% perfect?) but the people who turn up to get it when its not handed to them on a plate. those British youth have lazy motivation and need to stop blaming others for there down fall, including the government, its those uneducated people who will be voting for the BNP, no one who was in my A-level year(700 people) who educated them selves would even think it.
i can see your point of view towards the indigenous christian culture, there are times in our country for example Harringay London when i feel i could be in any street in any country as not one native British in sight or any christian mannerism, and confusion sets in as so were i am? :) but that doesn’t change who we are, I’ll still be wearing a white dress on my wedding day and treat Sunday as a day of rest, and I’m sure you as strong in your indigenous christian culture as you are wont be forgetting it any time soon or forced start attending Mosque :D
your ending paragraph sounds like a WW1 propaganda poster ‘your country needs you you!’
k williams: “The BNP are the ONLY party that say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, we must make the self serving, lying corrupt politicians of the lib/lab/con parties STOP and listen to what the British (you are one as well) want!”
i no its bellow the belt to make the comparison between BNP views and events from history but history teaches us to learn from our mistakes and you haven’t got your eyes open to what trouble the BNP would lead us to, with such strong views about such delicate ethical issues do you not think about what would happen to non-native Brits?? at least the lib/lab/con party’s have empathy for both sides!
“When a government creates a system with such obvious flaws it leaves itself open to criticism and extreme parties like the BNP jump all over it”
i agree completely! and this recession doesn’t help, people should not be so naive in thinking the BNP is the way forward just because they pin out the oppositions negatives and aren’t looking at BNP’s own because its not going to effect them directly, therefor doesn’t matter???
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-2
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Lets review the last few spells of labours control of the UK. Apart from the Iraq war, and alot of poor media handling, i really don’t think im ready to hand my vote to the conservatives. David Cameron is no suitable leader of this great country, and while im not going to climb to the roofs screaming for Gordan Brown, i struggle to see the hatred to get rid of him! This ecenomic struggle were almost at the end of, was not anything him, or any advisor could have predicted or prevented, as yet again it is a failure of banks and the legal loopholes that allow them to fluant our money around carelessly.
Tomorrow i actually have the Conservative MP currently in the Saffron Walden seat in a Q and A session at my college for an hour, and i am going to question him very deeply on just HOW ready the conservative cabinet is ready to take control of this country, i remain sceptacle.
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+3
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
As a former Labour voter (currently Tory), the more I hear of some of David Cameron’s plans the more I am not liking everything I hear, he (the party) seem to be moving away from the goals they set even three months ago in my opinion.
So I am moving back to something of a floating voter at the moment, will have to wait un till we get closer to the election to see the firm policies.
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+4
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Funnily enough I was discussing your comments here (the non BNP ones) with my wife earlier today and I was saying I don’t see you as a true Conservative voter, your views are closer to Labour IMO.
David Cameron is reminding me a lot of Thatcher type approach (old school Tory) and I don’t like it.
If you did decide Conservative isn’t for you, who would you vote for (I know you’ve ruled out one of the smaller parties :-))?
Are you in an area where your vote matters? We aren’t, unless Labour (2nd party in Boston and Skegness constituency) pulls off something dramatic it’s going to be Conservative (Mark Simmonds MP) here again.
David
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+3
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
I think i’ve said before that I have been a Labour vote for pretty much all my life, recently changed slightly due to some of the bloody annoying things Brown and co have managed to do recently.
So in the last by-election in our area I went through all the policies at the time and came down on the side of the Tories.
But as we get closer to the election and the actual formal policies start to take real shape and some of the detail start to become clear the Tory policies are becoming a little too drastic and could cause a double dip recession.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that we need to make cuts in public services I think the Tories may just take that too far and cause issues the other end of the economy.
So right now I consider myself a floating voter, as I think Labour are currently making a mistake in the current proposal to change the voting system should they win, imo that is NOT the way we need to go.
I’m actually at the mo looking toward a hung parliment I think the LibDems have some good policies that unless we have a hung parliment they won’t get a chance to give a try to, but if we have a hung parliment we could see a few of the better LibDem policies getting on the books (althougb this has a downside too considering the new voting system that Brown has put up)
One of the other issues I currently have with Labour is Gordon Brown himself, the staged election with the one horse race set-up when he became leader because of the previous deal between Blair and Brown that really got on my tits to be frank, up un till that point I had been a paid up member of the Labour party since 1995, I haven’t considered renewing that since then.
But even though personally a Tory Government would make me better off financially, I look further than that and what I see isn’t as good as it was before the “modifications” were made.
So floating voter :)
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+3
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
In terms of does the vote matter then yes it does the main three parties all run very close to each other to the point where the last by-election was won by just 50 votes by the Tories, so it is important to get it right.
In terms of the minor parties I dismissed them a long time ago :).
Like many areas of the country a vote for the smaller parties like the Greens/BNP is pretty mucg wasted in the grand scheme of things when they generally poll aroung 1-2% for the BNP and 4-5% for the Greens UKIP general get 6% when they stand so really not even worth considering.
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+1
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
tell me one policy or two of the lib/lab .con that have been successful they have brought us into rescission , they have destroyed our industry, they have lied to us they have led us into murderous wars, Now they say they want to fix it !! HOW by stealing more from us ,, enough get rid vote BNP
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+1
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
I’d be quite happy if you never posted at all Terence as your comments are never productive or truly worthy of debate.
I’m going to give you one warning. Keep your comments on track on a page like this one or I’ll ban your static IP from the site and you will no longer be able to even read the site let alone post comments.
I’ve edited your comment above to what is acceptable on a page like this one (this is not about the BNP).
I do not want to see all your BNP conspiracy rubbish on a page like this one, have a problem with the way I run this site take it to http://www.general-election-2010.co.uk/general-election-2010-have-your-say.html (and make it constructive, I’ve let enough ONLY negative comments through already) want to comment on a BNP conspiracy theory add it to somewhere under http://www.general-election-2010.co.uk/votes/bnp-policies as anywhere else it will be deleted.
If you don’t like the rules, don’t comment.
You asked “tell me one policy or two of the lib/lab .con that have been successful”.
Here’s two successful policies from Labour:
Labours National Minimum Wage
Labours Sure Start
David
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+3
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
I can also give you a few very good Labour Polices:
1. Tax Credits
2. New Deal
I would say welcome back Terence but i’d basically be a liar as I wouldn’t actually mean it.
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+2
When I left University on health grounds in debt (not a lot relative to what students have now, but £3,000 is a lot of money when you have none) without Labour’s Tax Credits system I’d have never been able to afford to start an online business that now supports my family and contributes to society.
Without Tax Credits I’d probably have been stuck on the equivalent of Incapacity Benefit (Income Support on medical grounds: I can’t work a standard 9-5 type job) for a long, long time! I remember buying 4p tins of Tesco brand beans in bulk as that’s all we could afford if we ever wanted to treat our kids!
I’ve wrote about my experience going self employed on Tax Credits at http://www.45-year-old-millionaire.co.uk/claiming-working-tax-credit-instead-of-job-seekers-allowance-income-support.html
My family and I have a lot to thank Labour for as nothing like this existed under the Conservatives.
Also to be able to go to University under a Conservative government I had to sign on unemployed while studying full time, (I had to lie) there was not the options to study that are available today. My eldest son between the age of 16 and 18 was receiving £30 a week for studying in preparation to go to University. Labour have done a lot of good things.
It’s got to be better working (contributing) and getting some of the money you need to live on from the government than not working at all (not contributing) and getting all your money from the government.
Terence if you don’t consider anything Labour has achieved a success story, I give up on you!
David
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+2
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
David, whilst this has worked for you (I thought you were 39??) the benefit of the tax credit system, minimum wage, New Deal, etc just pales into insignificance when you consider the utter carnage that Labour have wrought onto the UK in the last 12 years in other areas.
How will these help when more of the high tax payers leave? Who will fund these initiatives then? For 2009/2010 benefits payments will exceed income tax revenue by around £25 billion (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5651825/Benefit-payouts-will-exceed-income-tax-revenue.html).
The country is creaking and on the edge of bankruptcy overly supporting an over-populated society which it doesn’t trust to support itself.
The UK needs to be run more like a business than a charity for the next few years and Labour just don’t have the business sense in them to do it.
Cut costs, cut the perks, get rid of the dross and start making something worthwhile that other people want.
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0
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
I went to University as a mature student, had to leave on medical grounds in the final year, spent a few years on Incapacity Benefit (Income Support on medical grounds) and started an online business about 10-11 years ago and claimed Disabled Person’s Tax Credit which is now rolled into Working Tax Credit (the concept is the same and it’s easier to say than I claimed Disabled Person’s Tax Credit which is now rolled into Working Tax Credit :-)).
You make it sound like everything wrong in the economy today is only Labours fault, you know as well as I do no matter which party was in power over the last 12 years we’d still be in the crap today because of the greed of bankers.
Would we have been better off under the Conservatives all this time, who knows?
I very much doubt it with how badly they managed the economy under Thatcher etc… I can tell you I’ve done well thanks in part (I had to work hard as well) to Labour’s polices over the last decade or so and I don’t think I’d have done so well under the Conservatives.
Now I’ll do well whichever of the two gain power, neither of them do such a bad job the country will go bankrupt as you’ve scaremongered above.
A country isn’t like a business, the world can not afford to let a country like ours go under like you could with a real business. So though we are in massive debt, it’s not ‘real’ debt, we won’t be having debt collectors knocking down the door and taking the furniture.
Government debt stops a government doing the things it wants to do right now until that debt is paid off, so we (the poor people in particular) are in for some difficult times no matter if it’s Labour or Conservative who gain power this time.
IMHO I think it would be far worse for anyone who isn’t able to fully look after themselves under the Conservatives compared to Labour. If I was a “I’m all right Jack” sort of person, I’d vote Conservative as they are more likely to cut my taxes.
I read a comment on the site earlier that 18 of David Cameron’s shadow cabinet are millionaires and David Cameron is a multi millionaire (£30+ million apparently) and between them they are set to save around £7 million in tax cuts if they gain power and pass one planned tax cut policy!!!
I don’t think people like that (born with a silver spoon in their mouth) understand what it’s like to be a hard working British person who despite working hard is still poor and living hand to mouth. The tax break they plan to give to rich people (give to themselves and their friends) despite the recession strongly suggests they don’t care about the “little” people.
If I was a politician and had £30 million I would donate my MP salary to charity and not claim any expenses beyond the basics (parliamentary related travel sort of stuff). If you won a multiple roll over lottery week would you still claim a state pension if you were retired? It’s obscene to claim MPs expenses when you are so rich!
MPs are not meant to be in power for the money and those who are loaded should set an example to show this. When they are no longer MPs they can make a small fortune working as directors and advisers to business etc…
Oh and it’s rubbish that all the rich people are going to leave the UK, Britain is ranked second out of 104 countries regarding entrepreneurship and innovation which attracts foreign and home grown investment in businesses. Wrote an article on it at http://www.45-year-old-millionaire.co.uk/britain-attracts-foreign-investors-and-entrepreneurs.html
The Conservatives said the national minimum wage would damage British businesses, they were wrong.
I really hate it when people put down Britain for no good reason. We have our problems, but it’s still a great place to live with a lot of hard working people who just want to get on in life.
David
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+2
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
So you vote Labour out of loyalty to the help they gave you in setting up your own business and for the help they give people to get back to work generally then?
I suspect that mainly you have done well is your own natural growth and you would probably have managed this in some other way if it was in your character to do so.
Speaking from experience, the UK is not a great place to live any more and that’s why we and thousands like us have left to spend our earnings in other countries and bring up our children in the manner that we see fit. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mid East, Far East and Northern Europe have seen an influx of people who would rather live in their country than the UK.
Labour won by a landslide in 1997 because of the mismanagement of the Conservatives at the end of 18 years, for the majority of the first 3 terms the economy was actually very strong and doing well.
Labour were supposed to improve the mismanagement at end the end of the 3rd term and most of the 4th and make it better – they haven’t and made some things much much worse by trying to get into every aspect of peoples lives.
“I read a comment on the site earlier that 18 of David Cameron’s shadow cabinet are millionaires”…”I don’t think people like that (born with a silver spoon in their mouth) understand what it’s like to be a hard working British person who despite working hard is still poor and living hand to mouth. The tax break they plan to give to rich people (give to themselves and their friends) despite the recession strongly suggests they don’t care about the “little” people.”
I’m sorry, but this just sounds bitter; Tony Blair (and Tony Benn for that matter) are not exactly descended from paupers are they?
Increasing taxes does not necessarily increase revenues, the Laffer Curve comes into effect at a certain point (taxable income elasticity) and people start hiding their money and avoiding taxes. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7011728.ece If the tax system is fairer and people are allowed to keep more of what they work hard for then they are less inclined to avoid paying it and actually generate more.
Margaret Thatcher was strongly against a federal Europe and the re-unification of Germany because of their perceived strength in Europe once united. What we have now is a Federal Europe allowing the laws of the UK to be superceeded by Brussels; the free movement of unskilled workers to freely enter and compete with the local market and of course, the wonderfully successful European Convention on Human Rights. Where are we now on Europe? Forced upon the people, a nation divided on the actual benefits of it and the Government now too scared to call an “in or out” referendum.
I agree that the UK had it’s problems before Labour but I just don’t think they were as bad as things are now.
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0
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Hello Again Sarah,
I have to agree 100% that Britain has to run more like a business, I have suggested on here before that the Government as is are all Career Politicians and in all honesty are too far removed from how the world works in reality.
To make the Government more productive and or business like they need to bring in people from the real world here are a few suggestions I would make:
1. All MPs should have a council of members, taken from local residents they represent (and NOT the local parlimentry party)
2. All MPs should actually visit people in their homes for instance when a resident visits an MP Surgery to complain about property problems etc they should actually go and see it for themselves rather than just take notes in a meeting in the comfortable office.
3. All MPs should have a council of local business, made up of local business owners Job Centre Managers and Training Providers to make sure the money Government is providing to increase employment and training opportunities is targeted at a local level and not laid down by central Government a one size fits all approach (which is the way it happens now).
4. Government departments like the Business department etc should have people working or at least advising at actually function out there in the business world, they currently use the CBI a lot but that’s made up mainly of big business and doesn’t serve the needs of the majority of British employers who are small companies employing under 200 people.
5. The Government should set up a Department for International Marketing (made up of Marketing Experts and Business people) these people know best how to sell the products and services the UK has to offer and the types of countries and specific markets to aim that marketing at.
Obviously these would have to be expanded but as a general starting point these ideas I think would benefit the country as a whole.
We rely too much on career politicians who start of with all the good intentions but get caught up in the political world and forget to keep in real touch with the people and places they represent.
Take many MPs currently who represent areas of the country they don’t have any real knowledge of having not lived their or knowing the local community etc. Candidates in my opinion should be people that actually know the area they want to represent so that they can represent that area to the best possible standard, someone from the nice comfortable areas of Sussex for example doesn’t know enough about life on council estates in to Birmingham to really get a grip on what help/support work is needed for the area.
And this is one of the major factors in the reasons why the BNP and other minority single issue parties like UKIP actually get votes, because the mainstream parties don’t know how the area is actually working and the MP tends to ignore the grass roots problems and keep the rose tinted view of the country as a whole rather than the people they are representing are faring
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+1
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Hi Voteno, you’re still avidly posting then???
I have to agree with what you stated here, the economy is a business and the population are both the employees and the consumers with the Government being the management.
Bankruptcy is nearly upon the UK and it can’t sustain the expenditure for much longer. I don’t care what the background or privilege of any MP is as long as they get out there and find out what it is like for the majority and if they have a good business sense to get the country out of the mess it’s in.
I feel absolutely desperate about the state of the UK economically, socially and morally and the need of a change of Government because I really can’t consider coming back at all as things are at the minute. The last brain drain of the 1970’s was mainly due to industrial unrest (trade unions) and high taxes and now there is another – any guesses for which party is responsible???
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0
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
The more I consider who should be the next Government the more I feel that a hung parliment would be best for the country at the moment.
But that said if there were in my opinion Labour/LibDem Gov would be better for the country as a whole, Tories will walk all over LibDems as Clegg I don’t see as strong enough to hold Cameron back, where as he would be strong enough to pull Gordon Brown’s head in a bit.
Or ideally (unworkable, but ideal) a three way parliment would gibe the LibDems a chance to see if they really have workable policy ideas.
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+1
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“the economy is a business and the population are both the employees and the consumers with the Government being the management”
But it’s not that simple, with a real business when you fire someone it doesn’t affect the business beyond the obvious.
Government can not look on what they can save by cutting public spending without taking into account the cost in lost taxes, money flowing through the economy and increases in welfare costs.
It’s not as simple as we can save 10 billion by cutting ABC, because those cuts costs jobs and some of the actual savings from the 10 billion is lost through higher welfare costs, lost business flowing through the economy etc…
To use a business analogy, I see a country as a ethical or fair trade type business, there’s more to the business than just making profits and keeping costs down, they have a responsibility to the workers as well.
When the government (Labour or Conservative) start reining in public sector spending (I agree it has to be done) it’s going to cost jobs and that means more unemployed and less tax revenue.
From what the Conservatives have said they will do NOW we are looking at the possibility of a double dip recession! We with all other major economies are throwing money at the problem (economic stimulus packages) to generate growth to seed us out of recession and the Conservatives want to slash public spending now which will decrease tax revenues, decrease money flowing through the economy and increase welfare costs. They will cause significant unemployment which could push us back into negative growth (recession).
The recovery is fragile.
The only realistic way for the Conservatives plans to work is to ALSO significantly cut welfare costs. There’s no way to reduce the numbers of unemployed etc… (unless they leave Britain), so they will have to pay each family less in benefits.
They will have to cut things in real terms like working tax credit, child tax credit, unemployment benefit, income support, pensions etc… just to balance the books from making a lot of hard working public sector workers unemployed.
Also with all the economic stimulus packages from all the main players, is it the right time to cut back? Shouldn’t we allow our businesses to take advantage of new opportunities first before we reign in public spending costs that will make doing business in Britain harder?
If the Conservative fire a lot of public sector workers, private sector businesses will suffer as well as there’s less money in the economy.
BTW I’m all for cutting costs through cutting wastage and stupid expenses, but lets not go down the Conservative route and throw the baby out with the bath water :-)
David
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+3
Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
The public sector needs to be cut it’s too big and it’s a false economy.
You’re creating jobs out of one big pot, taxing those jobs and putting the tax back into the pot, using that same pot to create other jobs and give money to other people for various reasons who then spend their money indirectly paying back into the same pot. It’s a bit like a company whose only customers are their employees.
Job creation and a healthy economy should be made from investment, supply and demand of goods and services that other countries want. You cut your luxuries when you can’t afford them and stop throwing money at things that are not a priority.
“To use a business analogy, I see a country as a ethical or fair trade type business, there’s more to the business than just making profits and keeping costs down, they have a responsibility to the workers as well” – In an ideal world, maybe, but companies (and governments) have to be ruthless at times in keeping their heads above water and that means making its employees take responsibility for themselves as well.
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Sarah …… YAY!!!
Someone gets it, yes we need a Government to cut the chaff in public services, but the balance has to be right, not cuts for cuts sake.
Cutting from the wastage and spending that shows no return (running like a business), Barack Obama got it right last week, for every £1 (he said $ lol) spent we need to show a return on that, whether that’s in terms of employment rising or people leaving a hospital alive etc we need to show all money we spend is producing results.
If the Government bodies that are set up at a cost of anything from £50 – £60 million (sometimes more) a year if those bodies are NOT producing effective results and showing that the money they are spending is making a real terms return then scrap the body (a wasted cost).
The only way to make the countries economy work correctly is to cut the right services and invest in areas that will show a return.
The thing is this doesn’t just mean cutting read tape in Hospitals and having more doctors etc, flooding the NHS with doctors doesn’t mean more people will be cured etc, money should go to research in to Cancers etc the balance has to be correct otherwise yes we may have 200,000 extra doctors but that doesn’t mean they will show a real terms return in terms of decreasing death rates etc.
Governments look too much at waiting list etc and forget about research in to preventing health problems.
So cuts yes but then balance the spend and investment in to targeted areas that will show a return.
The same policy will work across any Gov department, it works across business day in day out, if the Gov had some of these big business manager (like Stephen Rose M&S) I know people knock him but he has kept M&S going and returned it to profit, people with knowledge of how to target budgets and get a return that’s what Gov needs not career politicians or Civil Servants with no practical experience of working in the environment they are managing or controlling.
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“So you vote Labour out of loyalty”
I wouldn’t say I’m a loyal Labour voter, I’d change my vote today IF I saw a real alternative who could also win (I’d like to give the Lib Dems my vote, but they won’t win).
None of the political parties impress me (so many obvious things they could do), I see Labour as the least worst choice between Labour and Conservatives (the only two parties who can win).
David
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“I’m sorry, but this just sounds bitter; Tony Blair (and Tony Benn for that matter) are not exactly descended from paupers are they?”
I’m not bitter, I have no problem with wealth especially if it’s earned wealth (not born into it). People who start with nothing and become filthy rich I take my hat off to them and say well done, it’s impressive and something to aspire to (we need more entrepreneurs who become wealthy).
My point was two fold.
1st the Conservatives plan to give a tax break that only benefits people like the millionaires in the Tory shadow cabinet even though we are just coming out of a recession and this is not the time to give the rich tax breaks. Working and middle class Britain will feel the pain after the general election through tax increases (probably hidden taxes) no matter who wins, the extremely wealthy should be in the same position and not given tax cuts!
2nd With David Cameron’s shadow cabinet packed with millionaires it’s not exactly representative of Britain. I know we’ll never get true representation (who wants a Chav as chancellor :-)), but the Conservatives are pretty much all well off, how can they understand what it’s like for British people who for example struggle between buying food and buying their kids nice clothes so they aren’t bullied at school for looking poor!
I don’t see how the Conservatives with their current makeup can represent ALL of Britain. I fear like previous Conservative governments they are in politics to represent themselves more than represent us.
David
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“I have no problem with wealth especially if it’s earned wealth (not born into it)” – so you have a problem with people who come from money? Those people whose parents perhaps worked their backsides off to provide for their children? So when you pop your clogs you won’t leave your kids anything, you’ll just give it to charity…? I’m scratching my chin here!
Firstly, you squeeze rich people until their pips squeak through high super-taxes as Labour’s Dennis Healy in the 1970’s pledged to do, then people leave, become tax exiles, start hiding their money or just stop working altogether, then your tax revenues go down. Giving rich people tax breaks make them happier to pay tax and less inclined to avoid it.
The shadow cabinet being packed with millionaires is not something I can get worked up about when you consider the non-millionaire goons you have in Downing Street at the minute who act like millionaires spending the countries money like water and flying about on private jets at the tax-payers expense.
The very wealthy people I know (and I know a few where I live) are very careful with their money and I would rather think that if they are careful with their money and able to make more then they may well be careful with the countries money.
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“so you have a problem with people who come from money?”
Come on Sarah don’t twist my words, I thought you were a better debater than that :-(
Lets go through what I said:
“I have no problem with wealth”
There you go, I have no problem with wealth.
“especially if it’s earned wealth (not born into it)”
I am impressed when people have earned their wealth and not born into it (if you are born into wealth, it’s not earned by you).
I have no problem with someone being born into wealth (that’s covered by the “I have no problem with wealth” statement).
So please don’t twist my words into what I clearly did not mean.
David
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
David,
You might say you have no problem with people born into wealth, but your posts don’t sound like you don’t.
You don’t come from money (neither did I), you earnt it and that’s admirable, but other people have been lucky to inherit their families efforts and I really don’t care if they do or don’t deserve it.
I don’t care if the shadow government is full of millionaires as long as they are capable of making the tough decisions that are needed to get the country sorted out.
I didn’t mind paying tax but I begrudged paying tax at 40% to fund the lazy chavs and their Skysports News of the World lifestyle who lived not too far away from me. Taking too much care of the poor people and not making them take too much responsibility is destructive of any country.
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
There’s a big difference between not being impressed with people who are born into money relative to those who earn their fortune and believing those born into wealth don’t deserve it. Of course they deserve it, their parents or whatever earned the money and as such they deserve it. That’s one of the reasons many of us (me included) work so hard, so we can pass on wealth to our children to make their life easier.
To suggest I believe anything else is twisting my words.
Back to politics.
I don’t care if SOME of the shadow cabinet (or actual government cabinet) are millionaires, if there’s a few millionaires its representative of Britain, but out of the 32 shadow Conservative cabinet http://www.conservatives.com/People/Meet_the_Shadow_Cabinet.aspx apparently 18 are millionaires (I haven’t confirmed if it’s 18, anyone know for sure?).
The Conservative shadow cabinet significantly over represents the extremely wealthy. Before I knew this I already had an issue with the Conservatives understanding what it’s like to be working class, if well over half of them are millionaires how can they understand what it’s like for the average family living in Britain today?
In my experience having a lot of money, especially if you are born into it, does not necessarily mean you are good at managing money. When you have a lot of money, you no longer have to manage it as well.
I have to admit I was MUCH better at managing my finances before I was earning enough money to no longer have to worry about money.
When we were poor I knew to the penny how much money we had and what we owed, I used all sorts of techniques to save money on a daily basis. Now I no longer even bother to keep track of money, tend to sort my finances yearly. It took about a year to realise HSBC had signed me up for an insurance thing at £30 a month! We have a mortgage with 4.9% variable rate interest (it was fixed up until March last year) and I haven’t got around to sorting out a better mortgage deal.
Setup a saving account that automatically transferred £250 a month to it for 8% interest (was before interest rates dropped). The bank deal was you get the 8% for the first year, (after it dropped really low) the first year ran out in November/December, it took until yesterday for me to call into the local bank to transfer the money to a higher interest account (same deal, but 4% now).
I’ve been really poor, now I’m not I don’t manage money half as well as I used to, if I want something I buy it, no need to save up or worry about a debt. I used to know which supermarket had the cheapest of each type of food and would shop from multiple locations, now I don’t even look at prices and shop at the most convenient location.
The above doesn’t make me look good, but it supports my point. Having money does not mean you are good at managing money, can be quite the opposite.
David
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
David, you may not have intended to mean that you resent inherited wealth but that is how it came across in your posts and that is what I responded to.
Tom and Jerry are a better option than the current Labour government.
A lot of the shadow cabinet weren’t born millionaires, some of them worked quite a few jobs to make those kind of earnings.
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“Oh and it’s rubbish that all the rich people are going to leave the UK, Britain is ranked second out of 104 countries regarding entrepreneurship and innovation which attracts foreign and home grown investment in businesses. Wrote an article on it at http://www.45-year-old-millionaire.co.uk/britain-attracts-foreign-investors-and-entrepreneurs.html”
Another point, an excerpt from the article you mentioned here:
“Around 100 have in the past five years picked the country as a hub: in global migration terms they are a trickle, but are nonetheless countering a “brain drain” of talent” – key words are “a trickle” and “countering”.
The brain drain is happening it’s just that those people are being replaced with other people. So all our engineers are leaving and we are getting techy scientists instead, great!
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
“I didn’t mind paying tax but I begrudged paying tax at 40% to fund the lazy chavs and their Skysports News of the World lifestyle who lived not too far away from me.”
I agree with you 100%, some (and I don’t know the amount/percentage) of our tax money is spent on people who do not deserve it.
As I’ve mentioned before I like the concept of the work for benefits type programs: Vote No To BNP has worked in that area and thinks they are all doomed to fail, but I’m not 100% convinced.
I’d rather see government spending our money encouraging business to create more jobs (and government creating jobs in the public sector) than pay benefits to people who are capable of working to do nothing.
If the government doesn’t act we’ll have another generation of unemployable people like we had after the Conservative recessions.
We need government to set the stage so our country is more appealing to do business in/with than similar countries (it’s doing well, but it can do more). That can in some cases be achieved through tax incentives like the Canadian government does to promote it’s film industry.
It’s not rocket science, if a person is working it’s better than not working, we should be aiming for full employment using schemes that cost the country less than having millions unemployed/unemployable.
I don’t think governments (Conservative and Labour) think about this in the right way. It’s not necessarily about making a ‘profit’, it should be about costing the country as little as possible for maximum gain.
For example if it currently costs £2,000 (making the number up BTW) a month to keep a medium size family on benefits, it’s better overall if the adult(s) in the family are working and it costs £1,000 a month on less in benefits (working tax credits is an example of a successful policy). Still not ideal, but at least it costs less and the adults in the family are productive and contributing to society (paying taxes, good example for their kids etc…).
You can not run a country strictly like a business with everything having to be in profit to be worthwhile, full employment and costing the country less should be the goal. We should see ourselves in competition with other countries, not each other.
David
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
Actually David (Slap), I don’t say all the Government Back to work programmes are doomed to fail lol.
What I did say once was the BNP plan Workfare Not Welfare will fail because it’s an exact copy of the old Tory policy of the 90’s which failed to the cost of a few billion.
The current Labour Government have a good policy New Deal which has been built on and built on since 1997, however having said that the latest incarnation Flexible New Deal has actually removed a lot of the really good elements from the original New Deal programmes, they don’t invest as much money as they used to in re-training, previously the programmes had on average £10 billion a year invested and managed to reduce the unemployment level to under half of what it was in 1997.
Now that investment is around the £4 billion mark per year, the issue I have with that is at a time when the investment is really needed Labour have reduced it by more than half.
So started well with an excellent policy and are now kicking their own hard work in the nuts so to speak.
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Voteno,
“Actually David (Slap)”
You did well keeping your gender to yourself, but you just gave it away…!
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Quick more realistic calculation on average family 2 adults 2 kids on benefits David:
Couples rate: £186 every 2 weeks
1st Child extra: £40 every 2 weeks
2nd child extra: £15 every 2 weeks
Total cash benefits: £241 every 2 weeks, so £482 a month.
Average Housing Benefit: £400 per month (varies dependent on area)so what people assume people get on benefits for the average family isn;t anywhere near what people assume it is.
We all hear about the families getting loads of cash, but they are normally people who either have large families or family members with disabilities etc etc.
But the average benefit bill for a four person family is less than £1,000 per month.
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I wasn’t using the £2,000 figure as an actual estimate, just for a number to work from. I assumed it would be an over estimate, but not by that much.
I was thinking three kids and if you aren’t renting a Council or Housing Association house there’s not many areas you can rent a 2 or 3 bedroom house for only £400 a month. I assume the £400 average includes single people in flats etc… so an average family would receive more than £400 a month housing benefit.
You’ve also missed Council Tax benefit, free prescription, free school meals etc…
I was also thinking about indirect costs the government has to spend on employing people to manage benefit claims etc… (more are employed due to higher unemployment).
It all adds up, £1,500 a month doesn’t sound too far off.
Not that it matters, was just a number for my hypothetical example.
David
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Based on UK averages as a whole for benefits (data I have access to). It’s one of the things I tend to get annoyed with the assumption that people on benefits get £1000’s when the reality isn’t actually the case.
Most councils have a cap on how much Housing Benefit they pay as well, so lots of people have to pay the extra out of their other benefits which puts an extra squeeze on some families.
In terms of the % of your tax money that goes to paying benefits in real terms it isn’t that much, the average person (family) gets benefits for 7-8 months at anyone time, so not much of your Income Tax goes towards other peoples benefits.
Where the majority of money for benefits goes is to people on disability allowances and benefits, the majority of people claiming JSA are between 18-24 still living at home and get £56 (ish) per week, with no entitlement to other benefits only Prescriptions.
I have spent most of my working life working with people on benefits and do get frustrated with the assumptions people tend to make about the benefit system. I know that wasn’t your intention so sorry if I sounded as though I had an attitude about the subject :)
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No problem, don’t forget I’m one of the people who has spent time on benefits for medical reasons, it took a couple of years after leaving University to come to the hard fact I wasn’t going to be able to go back to University to finish my degree and continue with my career plans.
My plan was to leave Uni for a year, get my back fixed and go back to finish my degree… Two years later my back was worse and there was no way I could work a 9-5 job! I had a choice of living on benefits probably until I died! or go self employed and learn new skills to provide for my family.
So I know the vast majority of those who are in need (like we were) are not trying to milk the system and want to get on in life under difficult circumstances. What I want to see is more help for people like me who want to get on, but for whatever reason are having problems.
It’s not easy living on benefits, but then it’s not meant to be easy living on benefits. Whether it’s medical reasons like it was for me or hard economic times for many now, I can not believe families with both adults unemployed who care about their kids that neither of the adults want to work. Of course there’s a small minority who do take full advantage of the system, but they are a minority and it’s the majority of hard working people that the welfare system is there to help in times of need.
When I decided to go self employed I didn’t think to ask for help, so I don’t personally know how good/bad the system is for people who want to get off benefits via self employment. I wrote an article about going self employed and working tax credit and a commenter (Charlotte) said she was fobbed off when she asked about going self employed http://www.45-year-old-millionaire.co.uk/claiming-working-tax-credit-instead-of-job-seekers-allowance-income-support.html#comment-6737
During Job Center type interviews unemployed people should be encouraged to look into starting their own business and explained how working tax credits work, it’s got to be better for the country to support potential new entrepreneurs than paying benefits for people to do nothing.
Do you know the money your hypothetical average family (2 adults, 2 kids) would receive if one of the adults started a business and in the first year earned £500 working full time?
There’s a calculator at http://www.workingfamilies.org.uk/asp/calculator/ I plugged in 2 adults, 2 kids, one adult employed earning £500 a year and no to most question (no disability, no child care costs) and the figure came out as £795.00 a month (£182.96 a week) with over half related to the kids. Add to that housing and council tax benefit and it’s £1,300+ a month.
That sounds comparable to unemployment type benefits.
My first 6 months self employed I made a ~£500 loss (cost of a PC), so survived completely on the equivalent of working tax credit (first full year, April to March, made a good profit).
David
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
You would be talking tax credits in that instance, you would have to be working a minimum of 30 hrs per week and earning minimum wage (that’s all you have to declare at least) then the you’d get the basic element of around £85 pw (for the couple) plus child elements depending on age etc, so I would hazard a guess as Tax Credits isn’t a specialist area of mine but in the region of £200 pw, plus of course then you can add Council Tax and Housing Benefit to that (based on one working 2 kids I would suggest full entitlement to both)
The is a specific programme for people who want to start their own businesses New Deal Self Employment (restricted access) you need to have damn good ideas n now due to the serious budget cuts in the programme, most Jobcentres don’t even advertise the programme anymore.
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The Labour Government even introduced a New Deal for Musicians programme for people who wanted to get into the music industry, most people would probably be suprised at the range of New Deal programmes on offer:
1. New Neal 18-24
2. New Deal 25+
3. New Deal for Partners
4. New Deal 50+
5. New Deal Lone Parents
6. New Deal Self Employment
7. New Deal for Musicians
And employers can claim anything upto £2,500 for taking on someone between 18 & 24 and £1,500 for taking on someone over 25.
People over 50 get an extra £50 pw for six months when they start work as well as the employer getting a few quid as well.
New Deal Self Employment used to have start up grants of upto £2,500.
For 18-24 year olds the Government pay upto £3,000 for training courses in just about any area not restricted like the Tories used to do to standard stuff.
So Labour had a fantastic programme of New Deal’s I was involved in the designed of the programmes between 1996 and 1999
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I’ve only had a quick skim read through some of the New Deal information, but looks really good on first reading.
Apparently you can test out self employment under the New Deal Self Employment scheme for up to 26 weeks which is a great idea.
I had no idea Labour had put so much effort into these types of schemes.
Do you know if they are working at all?
My only problem with New Deal type schemes (not including the New Deal Self Employment, that’s definitely got the potential of creating new jobs) is they might not be doing enough to encourage more job creation in Britain.
If it (or other government initiatives) doesn’t encourage the creation of new jobs, all schemes like these do is help unemployed people find a job that would have been filled by someone else anyway. Nothing wrong with that per se.
To go to an extreme, if we had say 5 million job vacancies there would be no need for schemes like these since there would be a surplus of jobs available: the unemployed wouldn’t be fighting over jobs, employees would be fighting over potential employees.
What can the government do to encourage more job creation?
New Deal Self Employment for example is encouraging individuals to create their own jobs and that’s good for the country.
The vast majority of my income comes from working with foreign businesses (US mostly), so I’m taking work away from Americans and bringing US$s into Britain, though the US businesses I work with make more money because of my advice as well (I rarely work with UK businesses!). Even my hobby make money stuff (http://www.45-year-old-millionaire.co.uk/) is ALL from US companies like Google and Amazon (I’ve sold over $400,000 worth of Amazon products from my sites for example).
David
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In the early days of the programme 1997 to 2002 the New Deal programmes actively promoted job creation because they had the massive budgets to do so.
Since 2002 they have scaled back on the funding partyly because of the success of the programmes, but since the start of the recession that investment hasn’t gone up again to compensate for the number of new claimants which is where the problem is.
The Government where excellent in terms of investment in the early days but now when that investment is really needed again it just isn’t happening, which is one of the reasons I have gone off the Labour Gov knowing all the investment and hard work that went in to getting the unemployment lists down when it mattered this time round when it matters again they don’t seem to care about the programmes.
The most interesting part of all this is that the main ideas for New Deal came from Gordon Brown as chancellor but now he’s PM he doesn’t seem to want to keep the good work going that he really pushed for in the first place.
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Reasons to Vote Labour 2010 General Election
I agree with what you have written here but I would say that you don’t have to run the country strictly like a business only more like a business rather than a charity basket case!
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