Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

488 responses to Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

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  Helen

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 9th, 2010 at 19:17)

  @ Sarah in the Desert. Local authorities have nothing to do with the DSS policies you have referred to in the 1997. The DSS is run by the civil service which has a national mandate with no scope for local authority input.

  “People have short memories and tend to vote for the party that they believe will make their own lives better.” Is that not what you are doing? The Tories would make my own personal finances better but I’d never vote for them in a million years.

  “Bupa cover isn’t cut out for everyone and the NHS should be very thankful that people like us have it and don’t drain the service..” but what you fail to realise is that BUPA consultants are also NHS consultants. Every time your insurance company profited from your own misfortune in being ill, the NHS also lost that consultant’s time to the private sector. British medical students are unable to train and be licensed in the UK without training through the NHS. So effectively, the NHS produces the UK trained clinicians which you pay for (minus the huge chunk your insurance company gobbles up).

  Your NHS ideas don’t include “…those with hereditary or long-term illnesses that are through no fault.”. It would be interesting to see how you would legislate for this if you have time to summarise?

  “You think it’s in your interests for Labour to stay in power as they are the source of your income and you believe they will stay true to the NHS.” How can the Labour party be the source of my income? If by that you mean the NHS, then they may well be my source of income but may not be, but the private option for work can be far more lucrative so this is not really an issue of my own personal finances. However, on the contrary, the Tories would make me a lot better off financially but they still, as an organisation and as an ideology, make me want to hurl.

  There was nothing wishy washy about my post on me not caring about the EU as much as you and other posters. I simply stated that for me the improved NHS is a massive issue (life and death), much bigger relatively than the press driven hysteria about the EU. You brush vastly improved NHS waiting lists off as if it’s hardly worth a mention, which perhaps to relates to your private healthcare status and lack of residence in the UK. For me, years of waiting on the NHS for surgery was the most scandalous thing about the UK in the late 90s, bar none. And that epitomises the mess I was referring to. And now, it’s far far better.

  You can educate yourself, take opportunities, make sacrifices, work really hard and still see the bigger picture, in that there are always people at the bottom of every pile, many of whom will be hard working themselves but without the opportunities you have had.

  Yes there are people who don’t aspire to do anything, they are lazy, they are not contributing to society. That is a given in every country on this planet, so it shouldn’t be a reason to withdraw help from people who need it and deserve it.

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

  • 

    Sarah in the Desert

    Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 10th, 2010 at 05:27)

    Helen,

    I actually clarified my point with David on another thread of the situation available to single working parents due to a Labour shift in policy as I was in fact, incorrect this was a number of years ago now.

    “People have short memories and tend to vote for the party that they believe will make their own lives better.” Is that not what you are doing?” – Yes, of course it is whilst understanding economically how it is better for everyone if you allow people to keep more of the money they work for. It’s good for the economy (the Laffer curve effect).

    “Every time your insurance company profited from your own misfortune in being ill, the NHS also lost that consultant’s time to the private sector.” – this is nonsense, private doctors and consultants may have to be trained in the UK to practice there but to say that all of them work for the NHS and have their time sapped by private patients is wrong. I have used a vascular doctor here where I live who also has a surgery in the UK and does not work for the NHS at all; he used to many years ago but is now solely private, I’m fairly sure that he is not alone.

    “You brush vastly improved NHS waiting lists off as if it’s hardly worth a mention, which perhaps to relates to your private healthcare status and lack of residence in the UK” – quite possibly and I can take that on the chin, obviously I have had a little experience of the NHS over the years some good and some bad. I just think that there shouldn’t be waiting lists at all, if you need treatment you should just get it and not have to wait until you’re half-dead or have bits falling off you before it’s treated; this is a problem because the NHS is a bureaucratic, over-subscribed public service.

    “Yes there are people who don’t aspire to do anything, they are lazy, they are not contributing to society. That is a given in every country on this planet, so it shouldn’t be a reason to withdraw help from people who need it and deserve it.” – I don’t believe I was advocating that, I’m happy to support people who help themselves not the idiots who don’t.

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    Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

    • 

      Helen

      Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 10th, 2010 at 10:18)

      @ Sarah in the Desert

      I actually said BUPA consultants are also NHS consultants, meaning that generally many of them work for both the NHS and private sector. I work for the NHS and you don’t even live here so my perspective on the UK health service is possibly more current than yours. You were acting like because you have gone private you are doing the NHS a huge favour, when in fact, there is a different indirect argument here which relates to the amount of NHS trained clinicians who then work in private sector. It’s not as straight forward as sapping somebody’s timetable. To be fair doctors doing private work often fulfil their NHS contract and their private one without compromise (their NHS patients simply wait longer). It’s a wider issue about UK tax revenue investment in educating and training clinical staff, some of which is then siphoned off into the private sector benefitting a minority (and benefitting the people sitting on the boards of insurance companies and private hospitals).

      You did clarify your point to David about support with childcare in 1997, but in your comments to me you still seem to think of the NHS, the DSS, and the Labour party as the same entity. You claimed that the Labour party are the source of my income and haven’t clarified that to me.

      You also haven’t answered my question about your proposed health service:

      Your NHS ideas don’t include “…those with hereditary or long-term illnesses that are through no fault.”. It would be interesting to see how you would legislate for this if you have time to summarise?

      You also wrote: “I just think that there shouldn’t be waiting lists at all, if you need treatment you should just get it and not have to wait until you’re half-dead or have bits falling off you before it’s treated; this is a problem because the NHS is a bureaucratic, over-subscribed public service.”

      An example: In the UK, if your GP thinks you have symptoms suggesting a possible cancer, you wait no longer than 2 weeks to see an NHS specialist. If a hospital fails to meet the two week target (which very occasionally happens usually because of human error), it gets fined. You are out of touch with the NHS and are blind to the progress it has made.

      I haven’t got a problem with those who choose to go private for healthcare, that is everyone’s perogative. I have got a huge problem with anybody trying to marginalise the NHS when it has clear that if the right investment is in place, it can improve. If we eliminate beurocrats from the NHS, we would then expect clinically trained staff to take on more administrative duties which is a massive waste of them as a resource. I agree the NHS is oversubscrided, becasue we are an unhealthy nation, and we have an aging population, but public money is being spent on health promotion, preventative services and screening so that in future the burden on the NHS will be relieved.

      I’d be really interested to know how your proposed healthcare system in the UK, only for those who are not ill through anything they have self inflicted (how do you define this?), would be rolled out to the general population without any waiting lists, and how we would expect normal people to fund this if you also advocate “allowing people to keep more of the money they work for”?

      Oh, and who would be making a big fat profit out of this new health model?

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      Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

      • 

        Sarah in the Desert

        Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 05:44)

        Helen,

        You’re correct you do have a bigger insight to the NHS and also an ingrained loyalty to it as you work for it. I have been a reluctant partaker and opted to go private.

        “To be fair doctors doing private work often fulfil their NHS contract and their private one without compromise (their NHS patients simply wait longer)” – you’ll have to explain this one to me.. they fulfill both their contracts without compromise but at the same time their NHS patients wait longer, I don’t understand this.

        “You did clarify your point to David about support with childcare in 1997, but in your comments to me you still seem to think of the NHS, the DSS, and the Labour party as the same entity. You claimed that the Labour party are the source of my income and haven’t clarified that to me.”

        The NHS and the DSS are the entities that any new Government inherits and has to then manage and control, in effect their new employers (hence, your employers). Government policy changes directly affects both in the direction that they have to take (assuming of course, that the new Government has a majority house, which Labour does at present with a house representation of 346).

        “You also haven’t answered my question about your proposed health service:
        Your NHS ideas don’t include “…those with hereditary or long-term illnesses that are through no fault.”. It would be interesting to see how you would legislate for this if you have time to summarise?”

        I’m going post another thread for my ideal of the NHS because of the questions you and David have put forward otherwise this would be a mammoth post!

        “An example: In the UK, if your GP thinks you have symptoms suggesting a possible cancer, you wait no longer than 2 weeks to see an NHS specialist. If a hospital fails to meet the two week target (which very occasionally happens usually because of human error), it gets fined.”

        If I even suspect I may have cancer I don’t want to wait for up to 5-6 days to see my GP and then another 2 weeks to see a Consultant (who occasionally may not be able to do so), I want to see someone within a day or two, 3 at most! What a horrendous 2 weeks that would be for anyone!

        “You are out of touch with the NHS and are blind to the progress it has made. “ Obviously I am, I just don’t think it’s good enough, my expectations are a lot higher probably because I have experienced better (even in Government hospitals here in the ME).

        “I haven’t got a problem with those who choose to go private for healthcare, that is everyone’s perogative” – you really don’t sound like it!

        “I’d be really interested to know how your proposed healthcare system in the UK, only for those who are not ill through anything they have self inflicted (how do you define this?), would be rolled out to the general population without any waiting lists, and how we would expect normal people to fund this if you also advocate “allowing people to keep more of the money they work for”?”

        I would define self-inflicted ailments to be those directly as a result of general self-abuse such as smoking, heavy drinking, drug-taking, obesity (through own fault) and sporting activities with a high risk of incidence.

        “Oh, and who would be making a big fat profit out of this new health model?” Why is this such an issue for you? Organisations with profits pay employees (who pay tax and spend their earnings), have money to invest, grow and expand thereby creating more jobs and more tax, are generally more competitive and generally more cost efficient. Private Sector companies are not generally governed to use the EU Procurement Directives so it would be easier to work longer term with their preferred suppliers and reduce costs to supply and maintain the services.

        The “right investment” that you have previously mentioned is not “investment” it’s more public money paid out of taxes and national insurance. It’s throwing good money after bad.

        From David, “When it comes to the NHS there’s no comparison between Labour and the Conservatives, Labour actually care about the NHS. “ I’m really not disagreeing with you here. However, all political parties know that the NHS in its present form cannot continue forever, it has to change, the problem is that no one party has the guts to stand up there and do it because it’s such an emotive element and would be hugely unpopular if people start to think that they may have to start paying at least a proportion for their treatment.

        “I’m afraid in this instance you’ve been away from the country too long to understand what it’s like now Sarah. “ Maybe, but can so much be different in 5 years? I suppose I have now other perspectives on how much better it could be if the systems were changed.

        We made a choice of what kind of life we were prepared to accept for our hard work and unfortunately the one in the UK was not it, I do miss the UK but I just wouldn’t be prepared to live there again under a Labour government when all we were doing is paying into the system and not really getting anything positive out of it it made us think about why we were doing it.

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        Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

    • 

      David

      Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 10th, 2010 at 12:23)

      “I have had a little experience of the NHS over the years some good and some bad. I just think that there shouldn’t be waiting lists at all, if you need treatment you should just get it and not have to wait until you’re half-dead or have bits falling off you before it’s treated; this is a problem because the NHS is a bureaucratic, over-subscribed public service.”

      The above does show your lack of knowledge about the NHS today Sarah, it’s not like that anymore, that was what it used to be like under the Conservatives and one of the reasons why I’d never vote Tory. The have the “I’m alright Jack” attitude, because they can afford to pay for private health care!

      Great if you can pay for private health care treatment, but what about the hard working British families who live on national minimum wage levels?

      I had an operation just over 12 months ago and though it took time from first consultant appointment to actual operation, my operation wasn’t an emergency. Probably took about 18 months from deciding to go for the operation, having a minor procedure to confirm which disc needed fixing to the day of the operation (so wasn’t a straight forward, hello Doc, I need an op, OK Dave, here’s the date :-)) and that included a 2 months delays I caused: I was ill and had to put the operation off and got an appointment ~2 months later (I was a little worried it could be another 6+ months as I cancelled it).

      And my operation was just before the latest waiting list targets kicked in, which means I’d have got my operation even faster today.

      In 1997 the NHS waiting lists was a joke, people would die waiting for emergency treatment because the Conservatives did not invest in the NHS. As Helen has pointed out, if a hospital etc… fails to meet the minimum standards for treatment (patient had to wait too long) they get fined.

      Ill people would wait months for cancer treatment under the Tories with no recourse, under Labour it’s weeks and if they fail they have options like forcing the NHS trust to send them to Europe for treatment if they can’t get it in the UK quickly enough.

      When it comes to the NHS there’s no comparison between Labour and the Conservatives, Labour actually care about the NHS.

      I’m afraid in this instance you’ve been away from the country too long to understand what it’s like now Sarah. It’s a hell of a lot better than it was in 1997. It’s not perfect by any measure, but it is improving continuously.

      The complaints about the NHS have gone from waiting lists being way too long and people dieing on trolleys in passageways! under the Conservatives to patients wanting the new (expensive) treatments and hospital hygiene under Labour. Waiting lists are no longer the issue they used to be under the Tories.

      Tories want to change the working time directive so junior doctors can work longer hours again. Under Labour it’s illegal for anyone to work unreasonable hours, do we really want to go back to over worked doctors being on call for 72 hours at a time?

      I consider the NHS one of Labours biggest success stories and the Conservatives biggest failures.

      David

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      Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

• 

  AW

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 10th, 2010 at 09:41)

  Hi,

  I’ve just come across this website. It’s good to see a party which is no spin and does what it says on the tin. The bloke Jonathan Rogers looks like a man of integrity which is rare in politics as we know….

  The website is here: www.cornishdemocrats.com

  A Wallace

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

• 

  Helen

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 10th, 2010 at 15:18)

  @ Sarah in the Desert

  How can you reconcile these comments? They are both yours.

  1997 “I wasn’t entitled to any kind of help to encourage me to stay in work and pay tax.”

  NOW “…too right! We work hard for what we have, not relying on the Government to top up our incomes!”

  I understand you felt upset at the prospect of being better off at home in 1997 (again, Tories, not Labour). But now people, rather like yourself in 1997, do need income support, and it is more widely available. You seem to have a problem with people relying on the government to top up their incomes, judging by your second comment.

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

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    Sarah in the Desert

    Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 03:08)

    “You seem to have a problem with people relying on the government to top up their incomes, judging by your second comment.”

    It’s the lesser of 2 evils; would I rather pay tax to keep people at home or would I rather pay tax to help people work?

    Many taxpayers don’t want to pay for other people, period, but as we had to I’d prefer to pay to keep people in work, I might not like it but it would be my preference if I only had the two choices.

    As it is we don’t pay any tax at all now because we got so sick of paying too much tax for little benefit of it.

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    Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

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  Sarah in the Desert

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 07:05)

  Reforming the Health Service

  The NHS has improved in the last number of years (I have never said it hasn’t) but this doesn’t mean it’s marvellous now. So many people do opt privately in order to jump the queue or gain treatments not available immediately.

  Overhauling the health system in the UK would require all political parties to be in agreement and be fully committed to it’s implementation. My ideas here have holes in them because I’ve taken an general overview, there is no such thing as a perfect system and I’m not a policy writer and this is just my thoughts on how better the system could be not necessarily it be set in stone.

  Free point of use to only those entitled to use it at no charge, through the use of health cards issued after registration with your chosen provider to show your entitlement. At present, as a non tax paying expat I can walk into any UK hospital for treatment free of charge, maybe not legitimately, but I could do it!

  Every eligible (UK Resident) person has a basic healthcare cover for healthcare provided in Government hospitals should they choose to use it. General health insurance would be provided from either Government sponsored insurance agencies (for basic cover and to provide cover (means-tested) for low income or welfare recipients), privately undertaken or provided through employers under a company umbrella with supplementary insurance to cover illnesses / injuries caused by lifestyle choices. This basic cover would need to be paid for by either a reduction in National Insurance or a pledge not to raise National Insurance.

  Health care would be provided from say around 85 – 100% of the medical costs however the co-payment would be wiped out the longer the illness persists (as is the case within the French system). There would be concessions for certain illnesses deemed to be through no fault which would be set by Government policy in conjuction with insurers.

  You would have choice of using a basic low-cost Government hospital or a completely private medical institution depending on your level of cover and what you are prepared to pay for. I also see the need for charity hospitals (dare I say it, not unlike the PDSA!) to cover the gap for those who individuals who do fall through the net (such as the homeless for instance).

  Existing pensioners who have already paid into the National Insurance system for their working lives would continue under the present NHS system of free use for all which would be scaled back as those entitled dwindle in numbers. Those already paying into the system for a number of years would automatically receive percentage discounts on the co-payment and insurance premiums to reflect this (so for example if you had been paying into it for say 20 years you would have a 2/3 reduction in premiums and co-payment).

  The points I have tried to include to consider are:
  1.People tend to be motivated to some degree by money or the prospect of paying it out so therefore making people responsible to some degree for their own health and personal safety
  2.Dangerous sports injuries are paid for in full by supplementary insurers or individuals
  2.Long-term illness and hereditary illness provision
  3.Abuse of the system by those not entitled to it’s use
  4.Cutting GP appointments through (possible reimbursable) co-payment on consultations (you might think twice about bothering your GP for that funny twinge in your left leg that you had yesterday morning, if you had to pay something towards it!)
  5.Reduce / remove waiting times as more health providers would come to the market providing even more choice and easing the burden on over-subscribed facilities
  6.Maintaining fairness for pensioners and those already contributing into the current system
  7.Provision for low income and welfare recipients
  8.I’ve assumed that those people suffering long-term / hereditary health problems and self-inflicted health problems are a mix of different demographics (not exclusive to one group of people)
  9. Private or company insurance would allow people to take their treatment overseas and therefore removing further burden on specialist services or equipment

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

• 

  Helen

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 12:02)

  @ Sarah in the Desert

  “…they fulfill both their contracts without compromise but at the same time their NHS patients wait longer, I don’t understand this.

  Happy to explain. A consultant will be salaried to work for the NHS an fulfil their duties, as in do the amount of work the primary care trust has commissioned for local patients (for example enough work to maintain or reduce an 18 week general surgery waiting list (non urgent)). He or she may also spend 1 day a week working in a private hospital under contract to them, seeing private patients.

  “If I even suspect I may have cancer I don’t want to wait for up to 5-6 days to see my GP and then another 2 weeks to see a Consultant (who occasionally may not be able to do so), I want to see someone within a day or two, 3 at most! What a horrendous 2 weeks that would be for anyone!”

  Indeed it would be an awful wait. The reason it is two weeks is that the majority of 2 week wait patients do not have cancer. Specialists therefore have a lot of patients to see and discharge, with a minority to continue treatment. The idea is to allow GPs to make urgent referrals for anyone suspected to have cancer, so that those unfortunate people who do need further treatment do not slip through the net. It might not be good enough for you, but this system will be saving lives every day. The aim with more investment will be to reduce this waiting time.

  I completely understand why people who can be seen quicker via private option would want to do so. Not least because of the emotional stress and worry. However, I’m talking about the general population. People who haven’t got that option open to them.

  I certainly am loyal to the NHS. Not just because I work for it, but because I had my life saved. I appreciate what the NHS means to normal people.

  “I haven’t got a problem with those who choose to go private for healthcare, that is everyone’s perogative” – you really don’t sound like it!

  I wouldn’t have typed it if I didn’t mean it. I have got a problem with marginalising the NHS, a lifeline to the normal people of the UK.

  “Oh, and who would be making a big fat profit out of this new health model?” Why is this such an issue for you?

  I don’t agree with profiteering out of people’s misery. It’s quite simple. On your pojnt about tax contribution of private sector emplyees; equally people who work in the public sector pay tax and spend money. Healthcare professionals add value to themselves by training for years, and their earnings are then taxed.

  “It’s throwing good money after bad.” – you think like this because by your own admission you can’t see the good the NHS does.

  “Maybe, but can so much be different in 5 years?” – yes, improved waiting lists, a much more modern service. Things can get better too.

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

• 

  Helen

  Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 12:06)

  Re: Healthcare reform

  Thank you for explaining your ideas. I take issue with the majority of it on principle but would like to pick up a few points:

  “The NHS has improved in the last number of years (I have never said it hasn’t) but this doesn’t mean it’s marvellous now.”

  You said you you felt an NHS problem was ‘having to wait until you’re half-dead or have bits falling off you before it’s treated”. This is a massive contradiction. I’m not stupid enough to suggest the NHS is perfect, but I have faith in it’s ability to improve and give help to the general population when they most need it.

  “I would define self-inflicted ailments to be those directly as a result of general self-abuse such as smoking, heavy drinking, drug-taking, obesity (through own fault) and sporting activities with a high risk of incidence.”

  If a person has clinical depression, leading to morbid obesity how would you categorise this patient? If a patient has a genetic propensity for caddiovascular disease, but also drinks above the recommended number of units of alcohol (like most of the population), how would your new system prove the underlying cause of that disease? I agree that people need to take responsibility for their own health, but I believe we should drive home the message of health promotion; healthy eating, smoking cessation, drug/alcohol awareness. The smoking ban is another thing I am pleased has happened in the UK over the last 10 years.

  “Cutting GP appointments through (possible reimbursable) co-payment on consultations (you might think twice about bothering your GP for that funny twinge in your left leg that you had yesterday morning, if you had to pay something towards it!)”

  Do you realise that normal Joe Bloggs on the street would probably avoid going to the doctors even more if you introduced this. People with early symptoms would put off their initial GP appointment (because they are skint), and then could ultimately become a late presentation of something much more serious. People in the UK can see their GP for free. A concept such as this is abhorrent to me as it would marginalise poorer people.

  “You would have choice of using a basic low-cost Government hospital or a completely private medical institution depending on your level of cover and what you are prepared to pay for.”

  For this statement, I read differently:- “You would have no choice; if you’re on a low income you’d be using a basic low-cost Government hospital which will have been scaled back and stopped making progress, if you can afford it you’d be using a completely private medical institution, and how good it is will depend on how much money you’ve got.”

  I appreciate you have spent time on this and thought this through carefully, and accept that you are not a policymaker; but in a general sense you don’t seem able to relate to people on low incomes and how this might effect them.

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  Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll

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    Sarah in the Desert

    Comment on Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll (March 11th, 2010 at 12:54)

    Helen, in all honesty, you answered fairly predictably for someone who is embedded into the NHS system. You see what you want to see.

    I stated 85 – 100% medical costs provided, means-tested for low earners / welfare recipients(the poor people you’re talking about).

    You have failed to grasp that I can’t go into the finer detail firstly without knowing the finer detail – this is a general synopsis of what the system could be or probably what it is likely to be in the future.

    Rather than just saying to throw more money at it through increasing people’s taxes (some of whom never engage the public health services) I’m attempting to make it better and fairer for everyone and to actually give people a choice on where they can go for treatment, opening up the health market would encourage new providers for all to use.

    The NHS saved your life, well that’s great for you, some people are unfortunately at the mercy of their local NHS Trust who may not be performing as well as others. Some surgery is just not offered until things are really bad, such as vascular surgery, you have to be really suffering, ulcerous and at the risk of gangrene before the NHS would even consider surgery which then potentially costs more than if it had been done earlier.

    I never said or implied scaled back services in Government Hospitals only scaled back free for all service for future generations so providing affordable private services your freeing up government services. I would still expect a good level of service and facilities but without the stress of over-subscription.

    Joe Bloggs probably doesn’t go to the doctors because he knows that he probably won’t get an appointment for at least 5 days, will sit in a waiting room with a load of ill people coughing and spluttering all over the place, feeling hacked off with the doctor who rushed him because he only had 7 minutes allotted to him and forgot to tell him about that other thing which he will now have to make a separate appointment for!

    I’m curious as to how you see the French and Canadian healthcare systems considering they are health insurance based too and considered far superior to the UK.

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    Who Will You Vote For In The 2010 General Election Poll